Open Thread

There will be no other postings today in order to keep the Q&A with CU Regent Michael Carrigan (below) on the top of the page. If there are other topics you'd like to discuss, please do it here.

Comments

[Alva Adams]

This thread has been moved for discussion from the Q&A with CU Regent Michael Carrigan in order to reserve space for questions...

You apparently are in the "scare them into revising TARBOR" camp. You predict sharply higher tuition and the end of state funding as the only outcomes if the TABOR taxe increase isn't approved.

Have you initiated a study to find ways to run the university with less money---to drop marginal programs that don't pay for themselves or serve many students, to downsize the university into an institution that fits the needs of the state rather than those of the academics? Do realize what a surplus of good educators there is and how easy it would be to replace high-paid profs who might leave with even better ones who want to teach instead of publish and win consulting contracts and grants? Are you willing to look outside the box, or are the trustees minds as closed as those of its scholars?

Posted by: Donald E. L. Johnson | March 31, 2005 08:04 AM

Donald and James,

Nothing he would have said would have sat well with you. Unless he had said something like:

"TABOR really is not a problem. I think we should appoint a committee to decide for everyone which programs are ligit and which are not."

What programs would you cut?

"Do realize what a surplus of good educators there is and how easy it would be to replace high-paid profs who might leave with even better ones who want to teach instead of publish and win consulting contracts and grants?"

You are so obviously a Republican. Sounds like the Wal-Mart solution to higher education to me. Get a clue! So you saying that if we hire people at a lower wage we will get better teachers?

Genuis. Sheer genius.

"downsize the university into an institution that fits the needs of the state rather than those of the academics?"

????? What ARE you talking about here?

Posted by: Strider | March 31, 2005 08:25 AM

Strider,
Are you saying there are no ways to cut costs in higher education? Are you saying there are no ways to keep costs from rising at double digit rates? Are you saying that CU should try to have an elective for every student? Are you saying that every topic should have a school, dean, or department designation? Are you saying that once a program is begun at a college, it shall never be dropped or modernized? Are you saying that creativity is not allowed in higher education? Are you saying that we should not let market forces work on higher education?
Are you saying that you will accept absolutely no change other than increasing salaries, adding departments and raising taxes and tuition? Why would you say such things?

Posted by: Donald E. L. Johnson | March 31, 2005 08:47 AM

Sorry. Please feel free to strike my comments. Perhaps this subject is a little to close to my heart.

Strider,
I don't think your comments should be struck. Your response is representative of a lot of people in this debate. I guess what I'd like to know is where you're coming from. Student. Faculty. Alumn, or what? All I'm trying to do is to stimulate discussion about how to solve the problem.

I worry about the competence of the trustees to deal with the governance issues, which seem way beyond the personal experiences of any of them. Having served on hospital boards, I know how hard it is to get your arms around complex topics and deal with over-controlling presidents and administrations that make the board work for them instead of working for the board, which is the problem the CU trustees seem to have had with the last few failed presidents. I worry that the trustees aren't qualified to hire a new president, because they have little experience with major institutions, high-powered search consultants and the politics of universities. The real problems at CU and other non-profit institutions begin with weak boards, and most boards are weak because the members leave their brains at the board room door, if they have any to begin with.

Posted by: Donald E. L. Johnson | March 31, 2005 08:57 AM

[Strider]

Donald,

First I would like to apologize for getting a little to personal in my last post.

I am actually an Alumni of Fort Lewis College and have no personal ties with CU. I am a taxpayer and believe in higher education in this state.

One of my best friends is working as an associate professor at Mesa State. He has been kicked from college to college precisely because colleges are increasingly burning out associate professors so that they do not have to step up and pay a full salary and benefits. This kind of thing will kill higher education.

To be quite honest I have no idea how regents and others interact with campus politics. However, I increasingly see an attack on two things in this country, the court system, and higher education.

Going to college was a great experience for me and got me off my ass and involved in my country. I was even taught by a vietnam veteran who was a self proclaimed Marxist. Now I did not necessarily agree with him, but I made me proud to live in a country where this man was not sent to prison because of his political beliefs.

From my experience as a student at Fort Lewis, I cannot think of a single program that I would cut, with the possible exception of the football team. But after meeting and studying with one of the best students I had ever talked to, and then finding out that he was on the football team, I even changed my mind about that.

So when I hear cuts advocated I simply wonder where the cuts would be and who it would effect.

[sparky]

There seems to be a pervasive attitude from some that this TABOR fix is simply a way to throw more money at education. How often have you heard "you just can't throw money at it and expect it to work"?

The problem is, though, that public funding of higher education has become so starved that you have to consider throwing SOME money at it.

Tuition costs are already too high. I've had to put off going back to school because I can not afford it. I shudder to think of what the costs will be when my kids are ready for college.

So what's the cure? I believe funding for education should be priority one for the state. Responsible governance of the funding is absolutely vital, of course. But there are other state funded holes that could use as much, if not more, scrupulous oversight. The fight for education funding should be 'how do we get what we need', not 'how do we get by with less every year'.

As for specifics, replacing professors with lesser-qualified teachers will not fix the problem. This will simply force the professors to work in other states, lower our academic standards, and hurt our student recruiting.

And cutting programs based on popularity is also a bad idea. That would mean that science, education and medical programs would be slashed or cut, while business admin programs would be all that's left. Where would our would-be teachers, scientists and doctors/nurses go to be educated? If you have a few hours, I can go into deep detail on this point ;)

So, my cure is prioritize. It's very tough to say that one thing is more important than another, especially when it concerns the needs of everyone. But I'll say that education is more important than road construction. Or new stadiums. Or mass transportation. Or state parks.

All of these things are important, and it would be nice not to have to pick favorites. But without education there is no future. Sorry to be so dramatic.....

[Phoenix Rising]

Cutting professors who seem to survive on research grants would probably HURT the college, not help it. These professors' salaries, oftentimes along with their SA's tuitions, are paid through those grants. So what if they only teach three classes - their salary is paid, the SA's tuitions are paid, and the University sometimes even comes out with new equipment to boot.

Perhaps the most important thing that can be taken from Michael Carrigan's answers is this: when we started TABOR, 25% of University funding came from the State, but now less than 10% is provided by the State. And worse, the Community College system is totally dependent on this shrinking State funding. Asking CU to find efficiencies at this point is like putting a finger in a breaking dam. Yes, it will slow the tide. But it won't solve the larger problem that other State programs' mandated spending are squeezing out the University system.

[Donald E. L. Johnson]

I strongly object to having our discussion of the CU issues moved to this thread. It is an abuse of moderator power and ignores the fact that a Q&A should stimulate conversation and debate. Nothing I or anyone else has written has been disrespectful or off topic. The only disrespect I see is your refusal to allow an open debate. Shame.

If he's smart, the guest will take those comments into consideration in writing his answers. Interesting that he has posted no answers yet.

Please put our posts back in the original thread so those interested in CU can see them.

Thank you in advance. (tia)

[Bob]

When I asked the question if Donald E. L. Johnson could be a bigger jerk in earlier threads it was rhetorical, I didn't mean for you to prove it to me.

I know the facts can be scary but we will not have a public higher education system in ten years if we do nothing to reform tabor. My personal opinion (see this is where I stop asking a question and now go off on a rant similiar to reason your post got moved here) is that people like Donald E. L. Johnson want it that way. A system that allowc ANYBODY in this state the chance to live the American dream is something they don't really care for. But that is my opinion, if I have a direct question for Michael Carrigan that doesn't include my opinion I will ask it on the
Q & A thread.

[peterco]

You know, I'm slightly scared by the fact you don't believe that I can read two threads. I've seen far worse moderator abuse - have you ever been to freerepublic or Democratic Undergound? Or the worst, lucianne.com?

There is not a surplus of good teachers here, becaue otherwise they wouldn't be asking parents to be substitute teachers in some area schools. In states where teachers are paid decently, there are substitute teachers because there are opportunities for them.

Public universities has three general areas of funding, the students, the government, and the donations. The students are a net loss unless they put the cost at a private school level. The government makes up most of the difference in cost, and the donations cover part of the capital costs.

So if the government part per student goes down, guess what has to go up in order to just keep it stable? No university should have to become a 4-year community college to survive.

[sparky]

I guess moving the thread was part of a conspiracy :)

You know, if you have a question for Mr. Carrigan, his direct contact information can be easily found by entering 'Regent Carrigan' in a google search.

The idea of the original thread was to ask questions directly to Mr. Carrigan. The point of this thread is for us to discuss the subject. This ain't rocket science.

I'd also place a bet that Mr. Carrigan is smart enough to understand the need for the separation of the threads, and visit both of them, if he do desires.

[sparky]

Sorry, that should read "SO desires". Guess I need some more higher education.....

[Alva Adams]

If Mr. Carrigan wants to read both threads, he can do so. The purpose of moving the earlier discussion was so he would not have to scroll and scroll to decipher the questions from the discussion.

The elected officials and others who agree to a Q&A aren't spending their entire day doing this, and we appreciate their accessibility; the least we can do is make it as easy on them as possible.

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