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I would not be so quick to relate the experience of Friedrich Roetter in defending the supposed Reichstag "arsonists" to the current question of our social mores today, especially as evidence that the Republican Party is somehow subverting our understanding of "mutual relationships." The German National Socialists actively executed those who disagreed with them, and any discussion of political assassinations in the US would not be complete without a rather extended analysis of the Clinton Administration. They brought new meaning to "watch your back!"

Since you mentioned some interest in Brazil, I thought you might like this quote from the Brazilian philosopher Olavo de Carvalho:

"There are no more conservative politicians or parties in action in Brazil today. The last ones were ostracized in the last couple of years, either through suspicions of corruption that were never entirely proven, or by the defeat on the elections after a rain of accusations in the media."

Now... why does this sound familiar...?

Finally, I don't see where Roetter's quote explains your comment about the South. Any sort of context would be much appreciated...

Phoenix Rising

Jack, you can probably begin with context on the "South" comment by reading Keith and my responses above...

Donald, where is it written that respect precedes government censorship? This country would do well by the UK system right now; I'd love to see "President's Question Period" in the House :-)

Phoenix Rising

(that should be "respect precedes REMOVAL OF government censorship") - bad typing day...


Has anyone thought to think about how self-serving this witch-hunt for the "overzealous" volunteer actually is? I mean, once the media gets a hold of his name - what is going to happen to him? Anyone who has worked on a campaign knows there are overzealous volunteers out there who take things into their own hands, and at the Presidential level, their "zealous-ness" reaches to new levels. This poor guy will have his name dragged through the mud. He will be embarrassed and humiliated. He will get nasty emails and death threats to him and his family (assuming he has a family). All this because three people wanted to disrput the President's event and he thought he made a decision to protect the President he supports. Regardless of your political affiliation, you have to empathize with this situation if you have ever been involved with a political event, campaign or not. You can even agree that he made the wrong decision - I certainly don't think he did the right thing - and he probably realizes that now in retrospect. There certainly has been enough debate about it - I doubt he has missed the critiques in the media.

What if he is deep down a good person who made a brief error in judgement? What if he realizes that but doesnt want to come clean for fear of the media backlash? I mean, its not like anyone can deny that it will come. It won't be fair - and it will be tainted against him and the "Denver three's" lawyer will make him out like some monster that he may not even be.

This call for the person's name is out of control and pointless. Nothing can be resolved by the revelation other than public mud-throwing and name smearing. Is that the right answer to this problem? I agree its a problem, so what can we really do about it other than ruin someone's life? Is that the responsible action?


So let me get this straight, there just happens to be a whole bus full of overzealous volunteers that follows around this traveling sideshow across the country.

This is not an isolated incident! People across the country have been intimidated and limited from participating in these "town halls".

I want to get to the bottom of who is authorizing this fascist treatment of American citizens.

With news that Iran is ramping up its nuclear program and North Korea is launching test rockets I find it comforting to know that the President continues to take two months off for the do nothing to solve Social Security traveling sideshow.

It is so good to see the President has his priorities set.



Iran wil not go nuclear. The question is which one of us in the club sees to that?


Who said anything about this being an isolated incident? I think pretty much everyone has admitted that these things have happened across the country. AND, I might add- they happen on both sides of the isle. If you think a Democrat has never removed a Republican from an event because they thought that they were going to interrupt it - then you are just plain wrong - and naive. Its a problem - but its a bigger problem than just this President, there needs to be a change in the way these events are monitored and run from the top down.


I am with Rebel Dem on this issue. It is NOT just about tossing some "hippies" from an event; it is about basic integrity and illegal behavior. The same rock-heads who spent millions impeaching Clinton for lying about sex with an intern ought to be equally incensed about this lack of respect for the law.


Bill Clinton lied in a deposition denying a constuient due process.

I don't think the man in the black suit did that.

Donald E. L. Johnson

Phoenix Rising:
I am calling forrespect for the political process, not for the politicians.

I believe both politicians and activists should respect our rights to hear and express our opinions, and that isn't possible if politicians and candidates aren't allowed to speak and listen.

The Denver 3 apparently werre intent on censoring Bush, shutting him up with heckling. They were intent, apparently, on censoring anyone in the audience who wanted to ask a question or agree with him. Hecklers by definition are in the business of censoring and disrupting meetings, but their actions are called freedom of expression. So we can't stop it, but they can.

That hecklers make themselves look loony and undemocratic apparently doesn't stop them, but we don't have to let them censor without comment and criticism.

I don't worry about respecting politicians or office holders; I think they should respect voters, but few do.

And don't worry about a bad typing day. I'm having one myself.

Kenevan McConnon

Black Suit committed assault. He should be embarrassed, publicly humiliated, and prosecuted. He’ll end up with probation. His actions were out of line. He should have thought twice about being a thug at a taxpayer funded event.

Rock 5

My goodness people. "Black Suit committed assault." He was a thug?
The guy is a private citizen! The middle age hippies should have acted like Americans instead of sheep! They should have demanded to see identification, they should have demanded to talk to the guy's boss, they should have made a stink in front of the press!
Instead? They burst into fear at the site of authority and slink away, telling tales of a mean guy with a smiley face tie. God forbid they would run the risks associated with standing up for their beliefs.
Come on Kenevan, you're talking tough about the true America... Fascism wins when people no longer commit to liberty. Brush up on your history sport and you might trip over a bunch of stories about people paying for our liberty with their lives. As a matter of fact, there are a few folks still doing it smart guy.
The Denver 3 are not interested in liberty. They just want an extra 15 minutes in front of the camera.

Nathan Hale

Rebel Dem Phoenix Rising,

Now, if they (D3) wore those Ant-Bush T-Shirts in clear view and were denied access to a publicly funded “Town Hall” meeting with our tax dollars -- I would be standing beside you CRYING FOUL. I am a Teddy Roosevelt style Republican!

If the venue is private then protestors should be located in proximity to the event and have NO RIGHTS to infiltrate, and disrupt. If the event is public – they should be allowed to attend, but have the right to protest silently and peacefully. From my youthful days of protesting in college, interrupting the speaker seems to be cool (maybe to your girlfriend and fellow students) but prepared and skilled rhetoric along with choice images wins more “swing” votes in the long run.

The short version of my point - the facts offered by the “Denver Digits” are suspicious at best, and in the worse case, difficult to prove.

They claim they were told to wait for Secret Service.
Wait for what, a full body search? I get that type of threat at Denver Airport.

They claim threats of arrest by Secret Service.
They don't warn you - you just get hauled away! Seen it up close.

They claim (a couple days later) that they were targeted because of their bumper sticker.
The PETA people were captured earlier in the day.

They claim to know that Jay Bob was “the smiley tie guy”.
They didn't recognize the former White House staffer or Bob Beaprez staffer standing next to him during their ambush interview. (Duh)

I have volunteered with Jay Bob before and the only pushing and shoving going on is to get a hand shake from the President or to get out of the parking lot first.

The argument to me should not be based on the principles; I think we can all agree about that.
1st Amendment Good, Free Speech Police Bad.

The focus should be on the execution of how each group behaved.
Host Volunteers and Staff = Good. Lame Protestors and Reporters = Bad.

I’ll bet that a zealous volunteer who gathered the ticket list for the host committee reviewed “MoveOn.Org” web sites by cross checking their list and discovered certain ticket holders were “coordinating an action” and reported it to staff. Nah, that is too 1984 and creepy, it must have been those X-Ray Glasses from Marvel Comics that finally paid off ---. It may have been those uptight Republican business clothes (price tags still attached) didn’t match the hair color or body piercing of the Denver Digits.

I truly believe these clowns “staged” their own victimization at the Wings over the Rockies and attempted again with the help of a Rocky Mountain News reporter at our club meeting.

I see a clear pattern – deception plus drama equals press. I believe if you have to throw dirt, you’re losing ground.

The Denver Metro Young Republicans meeting isn't a GOP meeting nor it is open to the public. You future ACLU lawyers out there - review the definition of visitor and guest. If you need to cheat to win – you’re still a loser.


Kenevan McConnon

Do you do private mind melds; it seems you can read minds.

Bush has been excluding Americans from taxpayer fund events all around the country. The Fargo 43. The NH Pair. AZ Single. There is a pattern, and you don't have to be a mind reader to discern it.

You are affiliated with Black Suit and Smiley Tie. They were involved in an assault of the Denver 3. You can dance around the facts, but it is what it is, i.e. fascist suppression of speech.

Do you want freedom or do you want a weak blend? I'll take my freedom straight. Liberty or security? Real Americans choose liberty.


I could not agree more with Kenevan. I do not want security, I want liberty.

This incident is big news and casts a pall of shame on the Republican party here in the state.

All Repubs have to do to remedy this is publically declare the name of the one who kicked these people out of the event. Then it goes away. The longer they wait, the more it hurts them. Negative press keeps surfacing on this. Republicans need to do themselves a favor and come clean. That way us Liberals have no more grenades to throw.

Kenevan McConnon

I haven't been called sport for 25 years. LOL You mean the immoral and illegal war in Iraq? The Pope, The Hague, and the UN have all weighed in and the tragedy is that our men and women are being killed for oil and BushCO. Bush and his cronies are using our men and women to achieve private goals. It's immoral and illegal, but since BushCO has the power, they can do what they like.

I agree, the Denver 3 should have defended themselves. Black Suit should have had his arm broken for his trouble, but you and I know how that would have played out in the press.

Dark Suit

Kenewan - I am the man in black your looking for. Are you grad student? Your abundance of words saying little show it. Why don't you write less, read more and live better.

Your rants sound like the political slobber and snarky soundbites of a typical frustrated white male totally alone in need of a real job.

Just try and break my arms !! I only need a trigger finger anyhow. Now who has a smoke and a light?

The Man in Black.


Dark Suit,

You are calling Kenevan a geek? I invite you to read your last post.

Nathan Hale

Kenevan -

You are affiliated with Black Suit and Smiley Tie. They were involved in an assault of the Denver 3.

Where is the proof? Your word? The words of the Denver Digits? Yeah, right. They just removed their e-mail threads about planning "their action". I guess the FBI is hot on the trail!

Strider -

I agree with you on Freedom, but your Rights stops where my Freedom begin. If you cross that line - your Republican bashing friends are no better than the storm troopers we all fear.

Kenevan McConnon

Dark Suit,

I'm not going to assault you or shoot you, but I'd be happy to fight you.

Sven Bean promotes a no holds barred fight called the Ring of Fire in Castle Rock every few months. You'd have to pass a physical and we have to be within 25lbs of each other in order to abide by the Colorado Boxing Commission rules. We would fight as ametuers. The rules for NHB in Colorado are at the link below or just call Josef Mason to get a copy. I walk around at 220lbs but could cut to about 195lbs.

No, I'm not a grad student. I'm a martial arts and NRA pistol instructor. I also dabble in Real Estate.

Kenevan McConnon


Phoenix Rising

Nate, your "they claim"s are really missing reality.

If you're being threatened with arrest by the Secret Service and you respect some level of authority, you don't do stupid stuff and you don't question too deeply. Your knowledge of their tactics notwithstanding, most citizens aren't that suspicious.

As to the bumper-sticker claim, that's what the Secret Service told them after their initial investigation - why should they question that when the Service was being co-operative?

The RMN was tipped off to Jay Bob's identity, according to the RMN itself. Are you saying that the "staffer" was actually at the Young Republicans meeting and you know who they are?

So what do you see that's functionally wrong with their claims, again?

Nathan Hale


As a former youthful liberal, getting arrested during a protest was the bonus point. I am not cynical but experienced with these matters first hand.

The police (got to love them) are in the business of law enforcement - we as activist citizens are in the individual liberties business.

These jobs don't mix well. People give lawyers a rough time (got to love them too), but that is what they do and usually in direct conflict with law enforcement.

The Press on the other hand is about selling advertisements. Shock News is how papers develop their readership base to improve value of the space for sale. BLOGS are the beginning of the end for legacy press business model.

To answer your other questions - the magic 8 ball says "most likely". Too funny.

The claims they make are valid "for everyone". My dispute is that the Denver Digits are not creditable claimants. They conspired and planned to disrupt the "Town Hall" and for their safety as well as those around them -- it was better that they protest outside.

They are just mad because they got duped without a challenge. (See Huge Hewitt BLOG) Just because they 'thought it was a secret service staff' makes it a foul ball?

Being energized (one way or another) in large public place is a scary thought. Kenevan "Fight Club" was a cool but twisted movie. I digress.

The myths of their personal claims are not based on tangible facts - their claims are based on a boat load of "they said" and that is all the press needs to print now days, hence the fairy tale flows.

According to the White House Press Office transcript, they (Denver Three) admitted to their intent to disrupt. Your earlier question was how? Does it matter? Now, 'just flashing their T-Shirts and shouting 'stop the lies". That makes it okay - really?

Lesson Learned: First thing during a "potential legal" conflict - ask to see ID. If you're really going to be an activist challenge your opposition – please.

I was in Borders Books in DC a few months ago and a "detail" of 8 strolled in escorting some guy in a fancy suit and his wife to have a meeting with some other guy. They looked like Secret Service to me.

One guy was watching me surf the web at a nearby table and kept looking at me with menacing glances (I was dressed like a poor college student) that was making me uncomfortable -- instead of leaving and crying foul to the manager -- I asked one of them “who was the Secret Service Protecting at the Starbucks today” - he said, “we are a private protection detail and that information was private” and gave me a dismissive smirk.

"They had dark suits, some wore dark shades and all had lapel pins, high tech ear pieces and wrist microphones". Was I offended? A little bit - like after being snubbed. Did I leave - "HELL NO", I had the right to be there too. Did I heckle or disrupt their meeting? Nope – I went about my business.

Somebody posted a comment about waiting for the crime? As an activist, when I attend these events I am not interested in the zealous opposite view at the moment. Just like when going to a movie (also public venue) I am there to hear the presenter, not somebody else's commentary.

This is the appropriate forum for "sharing" viewpoints.

Phoenix Rising

Perhaps they weren't organized activists... You've shown a blatant association with Klinkerman and possibly others on the other side of this argument. I don't see MoveOnCO in this action; it's too small; you, OTOH, see a conspiracy pulled off poorly.

The restriction of the public at public events has grown to near-fascist proportions; I barely recognize the liberty sought by the Founding Fathers in my country right now, and I want it back! This noise (BTW, where is MoveOn.org on this issue - I haven't heard a single press release...) is bringing some focus onto an ongoing issue; I'll take what I can get at this point.

Nathan Hale


Thu must jest. Alex Young - webmaster of (fomerly known as DenverMoveOn.org) DenverProgressives.org.

Read the e-mail snippet detailing their "coordinating an action"? Posted by me on this Blog.

I have not hidden the fact that Jay Bob is a friend -- we volunteered together several times. Read Jim Spencer's Denver Post Column -- Jay Bob is last weeks new. They are after a different volunteer now.

As for the Founding Fathers - I used to teach a little American History for Navy ROTC students -- the freedom you know now is 1000 times better than the early days. We take for granted this freedom and opportunity.

Why is it a 25 year old legal immigrant can come to this country and barely speak the language and have less than $100 to his name and in 7 years become a millionaire?

I am not sure how old your are -- why is it somebody who graduated from East high school in 1987 hasn't done the same thing?

Race? Sex? Literacy? Quota's? Lanuage? I believe because most Americans under 45 or so have no basis of real sacrifice to measure their pain. No real pain? No real gain.

I wouldn't toss the word facist around so easily, and couch the drama.

I lived in South America and Spain for a while in the early 80's amoung real world facist and extreme Right Wing (Drug Lords) power mongers.

When you see judges, members of the press and the ordinary people who speak up in the public square lying dead on the streets for speaking out (like the murdered Nuns of my days) -- you can use that term as liberally as you do now.

This country is the finest thing going. I believe people vote with their pocket books, feet and voices. Words are the cheapest and easist to use but least effect communication method. A picture is worth a thousand words and music calms the savage beast or makes us want to dance.

What do "pithy" quotes on T-Shirts do for freedom?



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